Hip thrust


Daniel T
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Squats Versus Hip Thrusts Part I: EMG Activity

Dette er Salt's imbecile kommentar, fra en anden tråd, hvor jeg anbefalede øvelsen Hip-thrust, til en person der spurgte om hjælp, fordi han hverken kunne squatte og dødløfte tungt på grund af overanstrengelse.

Det er sgu egentlig meget smart at finde sin kilder hos en der kalder sig The Glute Guy og som lever af at sælge hip trusters.



Det kalder man Ad hominem. Salts indlæg sad blot et par minutter efter mit, og Salt har næppe gide læse artiklen ovenfor han kommenterer på. Tilnavnet Glute-guy, fik Bret af andre, fordi han er (biomekanisk) ekspert og fagmand på området, opnået titusindvis af tilhængere heriblandt andre coaches. Salt slår tvivl om mandens integritet fordi han sælger et stykke udstyr som ganske få avancerede brugere kan have gavn af (da en almindelig bænk rokker ustabilt når man har rigtig mange kg på hip-thrust øvelsen).

Bret Contreras er førende forsker omkring denne øvelse, netop udgivet på pubmed, så det er næppe suspekt af mig at referere til ham.

Artiklen er interessant nok af mange årsager.

Bret Contreras - The Glute guy

Im very proud to announce that today, the first original research from my PhD thesis was published ahead of print on the Journal of Applied Biomechanics website. HERE is the link to the abstract on PubMed, and HERE is a link to the abstract on the JAB site. If you want the full paper, Ive uploaded it into my site HERE. Published ahead of print articles usually arent fully-formatted, which makes for a rather annoying reading experience because theres just a sea of writing with all the tables and figures tacked onto the end of the article.

Good Science Requires Patience

A good scientist is patient. This EMG paper is not the nail-in-the-coffin with regards to the Which is superior for glute hypertrophy squats or hip thrusts? controversy. We need more research. EMG doesnt measure hypertrophy; it measures muscle activation. This study is a cross-sectional study that examined mechanisms of hypertrophy. What we need are a handful of randomized controlled trials (RCTs), with each hopefully painting a similar picture with the data. Heres a quote from the discussion portion of the study:

Caution should be taken when interpreting the practical implications of this study. It is tempting to speculate that muscle activity can be used as a gauge to predict strength and hypertrophy gains. After all, two recent papers have linked muscle activation with hypertrophy (52, 53), and another with strength gains (54). However, at this point in time no training studies have been conducted comparing the hypertrophic effects or transfer of training in the back squat and barbell hip thrust exercises. Future research needs to be conducted to 1) test the hypothesis that the barbell hip thrust exercise leads to greater gluteus maximus and hamstrings hypertrophy than the back squat exercise, 2) discern whether adaptations transfer to sports performance, particularly in relation to sprint running, 3) verify that male and female subjects activate their hip and thigh muscles similarly during the back squat and barbell hip thrust exercises, and 4) analyze the joint range of motion, heart rate, force, velocity, power, joint power, impulse, work, and torque angle curves between the back squat and barbell hip thrust exercises.

Much of this needed research is currently underway, so you can expect plenty of interesting data to come. EMG provides mechanistic clues with regards to training outcomes. I happen to be a supporter of EMG and I believe that surface EMG data can indeed be used to help ascertain exercise superiority for hypertrophic purposes, especially for large muscles like the gluteus maximus. However, there are three primary mechanisms of hypertrophy (click HERE for a primer on this topic), with activation influencing tension and metabolic stress to a greater degree than damage. In addition, EMG has its share of limitations (click HERE and HERE for two articles on this topic). Therefore, the team hip thrust camp needs to wait until more research emerges to before they do the crotch chop dance in front of the team squat camp.

What I Love About Science

Science hones in on the truth over time. Youve got this vocal guy (me) who has championed hip thrusts over the past nine years (6 years online). Youve got all sorts of trainers, coaches, athletes, bikini competitors, and physical therapists around the globe who are in agreement with the efficacy of hip thrusts. On the other hand, youve also got a bunch of skeptics who apparently think that the hip thrust is moronic, inefficient, and/or non-functional (Ive noticed that these people tend to have their own forums, they tend to need to be perceived as world experts on every topic, they tend to dis on anything they didnt think of first, and they tend to not conduct any research of their own they just dis on research that emerges, but I digress).
Heres what I love about scienceit doesnt matter what in the hell I say. It doesnt matter what in the hell these other people say. The truth is the truth. Science is true whether you believe in it or not. The truth about hip thrusts exists. Its up to us (humans) to discover the truth through research and experimentation.

In five years, were going to know much, much more about hip thrusts. I will personally publish probably a dozen papers on the topic, but I expect many other researchers and labs to take interest in the hip thrust and start conducting research (both mechanistic and training studies) on them as well.

My thesis is just the start. I have examined 1) the EMG activity between squats and hip thrusts, 2) the EMG activity of 3 different squat variations, 3) the EMG activity of 3 different hip thrust variations, 4) the force, power, work, and impulse between squats and hip thrusts, 5) the transfer to vertical and horizontal jump, 10 and 20m acceleration, 1RM front squat and hip thrust, and max isometric mid-thigh-pull between front squats and hip thrusts, and 6) the transfer to upper and lower gluteus maximus muscle thickness, 1RM squat and hip thrust, and max horizontal force between squats and hip thrusts in a pair of identical twins. This will provide a great foundation for future research and will generate many hypotheses that require testing.

Even after my thesis is published, we still wont know much. Well definitely know a lot more than we previously did, but we need 50-100 quality studies on the hip thrust before we can confidently discuss its efficacy across the board for varying purposes and populations. The truth will emerge over time, and no guru (not me and not the naysayers) can effectively suppress the truth in the long run. Charismatic leaders can definitely distract people and lead them in the wrong directions, but in the end, science always prevails. Maybe Ive led people in the wrong direction, and maybe the skeptics have led people in the wrong direction. Maybe the converse is true is well. The truth shall prevail.

In the End

In the end, what I can already say with MUCH confidence is that athletes should perform both squats and hip thrusts. Squats appear to outperform hip thrusts in certain very important outcomes and hip thrusts appear to outperform squats in certain very important outcomes. Most of you reading this are probably nodding your heads like, no shit, but there are indeed people that think you shouldnt squat or shouldnt hip thrusthopefully their minds will be changed when they see my findings and future findings of others.

I would think that my TESTIMONIALS would have changed their minds, but apparently that doesnt matter to them. Anecdotes are cool, but theyre not the be-all-end-all since variables are not controlled which prevents us from pinpointing the mechanisms responsible for improvements.

And Now, the EMG Study Findings

Again, click HERE to download the full paper. There isnt much more I have to add thats not included in the paper. The study examined 13 trained women. Here is a chart from the study:

chart1.png

As you can see, hip thrusts appear to be superior to squats in terms of upper gluteus maximus, lower gluteus maximus, and biceps femoris activity. Interestingly, vastus lateralis activity wasnt far superior in squats compared to hip thrusts this is something I noticed many years ago. Hip thrusts heavily activate the quads, but squats indeed have the edge considering that they move the knees through a much greater ROM and have slightly higher quad activation.

Here are some graphs that we made that didnt make it into the article (I never agree with this practice, but peer reviewers want either a chart or a graph, but not both as they believe them to be redundantI prefer both for numerical and visual puproses).

111111111.png
This shows mean activation for squats and hip thrusts


111111111.png
This shows peak activation for squats and hip thrusts

Isoholds: Bottom of the Squat Versus Top of the Hip Thrust

Here is some fascinating data. When I do a pause squat, I feel my glutes working very well. Im sure that many of you do too. My glutes can get rather sore the next day as well if I do a high volume pause squat session you can probably relate to this as well. However, the glutes (and the hamstrings for that matter) barely activate at the bottom of a squat. Vasti and the erector spinae activation is through the roof, but it seems that the hip extensors provide force mostly through stretch, not activation. This EMG data jives with the findings of Worrell et al. 2015 and Robertson et al. 2008. The gluteus maximus activates to a much greater degree in full hip extension compared to hip flexion, hence why the barbell hip thrust isohold is so high.
Squat_vs_Hip_Thrust_1_ii.png


Battle of the Isoholds: Bottom Squat versus Top Hip Thrust in Muscle Activation


Iso Mean
nastsidst.png
This is average muscle activation in the isoholds (bottom of the squat and top of the hip thrust)
Iso Peak
sidst.png

This is the highest muscle activation in the isoholds (bottom of the squat and top of the hip thrust)

Conclusion

There will be much more research to come. We need a high quality training study that looks at actual muscle hypertrophy before confidently claiming that hip thrusts are superior to squats for gluteus maximus growth and development. Better yet, we need a dozen. In the meantime, we should certainly consider these EMG findings along with other forms of evidence such as anecdotes, tradition, logic, and expert opinion. However, we should properly frame these lesser forms of evidence (click HERE to read about the hierarchy of knowledge) and eagerly await the arrival of RCTs.

Team squat camp: You dont need to dismiss surface EMG evidence and call this research idiotic; it provides good clues. These clues can be useful in predicting the transfer to various activities, which will emerge in time. You should, however, open your mind to the possibility that hip thrusts are indeed highly effective for glute growth

Team hip thrust camp: Dont be jerks and claim that hip thrusts are superior to squats for glute growth; we dont know that yet. They might or they might not be, but you dont want to look like an idiot if the experimental data (actual hypertrophy) doesnt jive with theoretical findings (EMG). Its better to be cautious and reserved.
In summary, well know more in time.

Edited by Daniel T
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Syntes du ikke det er lidt overdrevet at oprette en hel tråd om at hipthrusters træner røven bedre end squat, kun fordi at Salt var hurtig ude med en unfair kildekritik?

Det sagt er det yderst interessant at hipthrusters træner røven bedre end squat. Det giver mig dog ikke den store lyst til at træne den, men interessant viden.

Edited by Ramius
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Altså en decideret gluteøvelser er bedre til at ramme glutes end en øvelse der ikke er en specifik gluteøvelse?

Før jeg læste om hipthrusters, så jeg det mest som en sær øvelse. Og hvis nogen spurgte mig om en øvelse der ramt glutes så ville jeg til hver en tid sige squat da jeg ikke ville mene der var nogen isoleringsøvelse der ramte bedre end squat. Man kan så sige at hipthrusters ikke rammer væsentlig bedre, men det er dog et muligt alternativ.

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Det er i hvert fald fedt at der er en power øvelse man kan vedligeholde noget masse på, hvis man i perioder ikke kan køre de to store øvelser.

Jeg mener der er rum for at prioritere anderledes i træningen, hvis man tænker man skal være stærk i dette game til man er 80 år.

Jeg træner sammen med to andre bedre ryganatomibelæste træningskammerater ud fra at man har et begrænset antal vægtbærende for-overbøjninger med ryggen til rådighed på grund af ledbrusken. Ser desværre flere ryge ud af gamet eller får ret så begrænsende skavanker når de kommer op i alderen, selvom de ikke har trænet med hovedet under armen. Træner selv squat og dødløft for at bevare funktionalitet. Men eksempelvis work-load for hypertrofi er flyttet over på hip-belt squats hvor lænden går helt fri, og desuden mener jeg at den rammer quads bedre end konventionel squat. Det giver mening for mig (desuden ikke specielt godt bygget til konventionel squat). Hip thrusten belaster ikke ryg og det mener jeg også er et kanon (sundheds)element ved øvelsen (men ikke nødvendigvis afgørende for at vælge den). Min ene kammerat arbejder på at lave individuelle målinger af korrekt træningsdosering for den enkelte person. Og det er ikke for meget hvilket er relevant hvis kroppen skal holde et helt langt liv. Disse ting er elementer i min træningsfilosofi.

Edited by Daniel T
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Syntes det er interessant at hip thrusters ifølge undersøgelsen åbenbart også rammer baglår bedre end squat eller har jeg set forkert?

Findes der undersøgelser der kan sige noget om disse EMG målinger? Her mener jeg om bedre aktivering er lig med bedre hypertrofi? Eller vil en øvelse som Hip thrusters kunne gavne mit Squat hvis nu jeg havde svage baller og problemer med at holde knæene ude under squat?

Nu har jeg aldrig kørt Hip thrusters udover i opvarmning til netop squat men jeg tror ikke jeg er enig i at øvelsen ikke går i ryggen hvis man begynder at køre med tunge vægte. Tværtimod tror jeg meget nemt man kan komme til at svaje for meget i ryggen i bunden af løftet?

Edited by Polunda
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Det er også lidt interessant at se på om hip thrusts liggende med øvre ryg på en bænk ikke potentielt kunne flytte lidt rundt med nogle af de mange led der befinder sig der. Facetled, costaevertebral. Minder og en selvmobiliseringsøvelse midt- thoracalt.

Så ville jeg ud fra dette bestemt også vælge øvelser som front Squat, lunges, bulgarian split Squat, variationer og Squat og dødløft. Eks tempo manipulation der gør at man kan atrofimæssigt kan opnå samme effekt med lavere vægte og dermed også potentielt mindre mekanisk slid.

Den med at lænden har en garanti på et vidst antal foroverbøjninger er jeg stadig noget skeptisk overfor!

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Det er også lidt interessant at se på om hip thrusts liggende med øvre ryg på en bænk ikke potentielt kunne flytte lidt rundt med nogle af de mange led der befinder sig der. Facetled, costaevertebral. Minder og en selvmobiliseringsøvelse midt- thoracalt.

Så ville jeg ud fra dette bestemt også vælge øvelser som front Squat, lunges, bulgarian split Squat, variationer og Squat og dødløft. Eks tempo manipulation der gør at man kan atrofimæssigt kan opnå samme effekt med lavere vægte og dermed også potentielt mindre mekanisk slid.

Den med at lænden har en garanti på et vidst antal foroverbøjninger er jeg stadig noget skeptisk overfor!

Det var meget hipt at mene dette for omkring 5 år siden Troels. :shades:

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  • 4 weeks later...

Jeg har 1 udøver der laver glute bridges. 2-3x10-15 reps til failure 1-3 gange per uge. Øvelsen er pladseret til sidst i trænings passet eller på lette dage med 1 dagspause. Jeg bruger også diverse andre glute isolations øvelser dog ikke noget der fylder specielt. Målet er Hypotrofi.

1. Den er med garanti ikk belastende for det du beskriver Troels.

2. EMG studier viser ikk noget om muskelvækst eller præstation fremmende effekter. Øvelser hvori øvelsen er tung i en bestemt del af øvelsen for høje EMG tal, da man nærmere sig isometrisk maks. Der siger ikke nødvendigvis noget om dens potentialer

3. Foroverbøjninger (krumryg) er undersøgt på døde grise og der gælder formentligt det samme for deres knæ.. væv der ikke healer brister. Kroppens væv healer dog. Squat er iøvrigt ikke med krumninger.

4. Måske findes der bedre isolations øvelser til røven end glute bridges..

5. Bret Contreras har markedsført sig som glute guy og produceret forskning der understøtter hans metoder. Der er i høj grad en kilde man skal være skeptisk omkring. En af de adfærds mønstre fra hans side der understøtter dette er hans forsøg på inddrage glute bridges som en øvelse der skulle forbedre top fart. En antagelse de fleste top eksperter på området ikke er enig i.

Hvorfor er gluts ikke vigtige for 99%

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Jeg kan med garanti fortælle dig at den belaster det område jeg snakker om ;-) Det er indiskutabelt.

Om denne belastning vil give problemer aner jeg ikke. Min pointe var bare at også ved glute bridge er en belastning på kroppen.

Det er en af pointerne ved styrketræning.

Det skal siges at jeg ikke selv har stor erfaring med tunge glute bridges.

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forstå mig ret Troels. Der er ikke nogen relevant belastning på området der kan give problemer.

1. Hvis du er nervøs for øvelsen så undgå evt. at have konen ridene når i giver den gas. Du skulle jo nødig brække ryggen hvis du kommer til at løfte numsen.

2. Vægten går igennem hofte. Vægten overførslen fra hoften til skulderne er under 100%. Lad os antage vægten er 100% og du er meget stærk, f.eks. 150kg... har du nogensinde set en wrestler land ned på området? Hvad lander de med... 2,3,4 x BW (100kg)??

3. Vægten overførslen er større ved bænk

Edited by RuneB
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det var et ærligt spørgsmål til Fame.. jeg tænker gluts er overrated og han måske havde noget info omkring det?

@RuneB

"Hvorfor er gluts ikke vigtige for 99%"

er det et ?

eller en konstatering (altså Hvorfor isoleret glute træning ikke er vigtig, for 99% af trænende individer).

Edited by RuneB
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forstå mig ret Troels. Der er ikke nogen relevant belastning på området der kan give problemer.

1. Hvis du er nervøs for øvelsen så undgå evt. at have konen ridene når i giver den gas. Du skulle jo nødig brække ryggen hvis du kommer til at løfte numsen.

2. Vægten går igennem hofte. Vægten overførslen fra hoften til skulderne er under 100%. Lad os antage vægten er 100% og du er meget stærk, f.eks. 150kg... har du nogensinde set en wrestler land ned på området? Hvad lander de med... 2,3,4 x BW (100kg)??

3. Vægten overførslen er større ved bænk

Nu snakker jeg ikke om med ryggen liggende på gulvet. Men varianten med midtryg liggende på kanten af en bænk. Der er det et meget lille område som presset bliver fordelt på.

Bænkpres kan iøvrigt også sagtens give midtthoracale spændinger. Har set og oplevet det masser af gange. Samme med wrestlere der bliver kastet gentagne gange. Har også oplevet det i BJJ både på mig selv om dem jeg trænede med bare efter få kast. Det handler selvfølgelig om at kunne rulle med faldet.

Men forstå mig ret. Jeg anser da bestemt glute bridges for en ret sikker øvelse.

Daniel T starter bare med at problematisere squat og dødløft varianter og fremlægger glutes bridges som en øvelse der ikke belaster kroppen overhovedet. Der pointere jeg bare at varianter af glute bridge belaster andre området. MÅSKE/Muligvis kan det være et problem. Måske ikke. Jeg har ikke udført noget casestudy på den. Øvelsen med midtryg placeret på bænken bruges som en selvmanipulationsøvelse og med store frekvens og intensitet kunne det muligvis også give et problem. Jeg forstår ikke at du så skråsikkert kan sige at det slet ikke belaster dette område.

Ps. Min kone vejer kun 44 kg så min gamle ryg klarer det lige ;-)

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  • 1 month later...

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